Robin/Rin: if you know, how does the UK define "emotion" for the purpose of the data? 

I think there are various issues with statistics. The first relies on the fact that most abuse isn't reported. I have known various women who have been sexually and physically abused as children and raped as women, some as friends and work colleagues, some as family members and yet not one of them has ever reported it and entered into the statistics. 

This could mean that the percentage of abusive men is therefore much higher, but I also think that if there are say 7% of women abused then that doesn't mean 7% of men are abusers as some of these women will be abused by other women and some will be abused by serial abusers. 

The flip side as Steve W points out is what counts as abuse and also in this attention seeking 21st Century world when is abuse actually abuse and when is it a lie. And where does all this fit into the statistics. Sadly I am have to wonder how many liars are gaining fake attention and pleasure through their lies, and how many abused people stay quite because the whole things has become a dirty media frenzy that most people who are abused would quietly not want to get involved with. The shame, guilt, embarrassment and fear has put off most women from coming forward for years and that was before it became a media favourite. 

The whole situation has been stirred up unpleasantly by (as Steve W may call them) Preachers. And we see this in other aspects of society too. Causing trouble within racism and in LGBQT. We are encouraged to resent and mistrust each other. We are discouraged from finding peace. We are made to believe that things are still really bad, and in doing so we are seeing things being made bad, made worse. Certainly we are seeing this in the UK where people are getting more and more angry, and the live and let live attitude that I felt Britain was naturally finding within its people which probably was at its best around the turn of the century is crumbling and youngsters are becoming homophobic, pensioners are becoming racist, women are growing to hate men, families are learning to fear strangers, and ancient history is being stirred up purposely to create a new history of anger and destruction. Let's face it if all people could probably find a reason to hate all other people if we dig around the history books. How do we move forward when old wounds are being constantly picked at and new wounds are being created? My oldest son was actually told by his previous schools career advisor that as a white, able bodied, heterosexual English male he will find it very hard to get a job when he leaves school. What a thing to be told at 12. Stupid or honest it is not going to encourage him to believe in his future or feel generous towards his fellow humans. Thankfully we have encouraged him to see past such ideas and believe in himself as an individual. Though he still get wound up by certain injustices. Why are girls allowed to hit boys without punishment but if a boy hits a girl...? And this is not just girls giving gentle pats but actually tough attacks. He was held in an armlock while a girl repeated punch him in the face and chest, at another time a girl pushed him over and then repeated booted him in the back. He is a fit and sporty lad, but doesn't know how to deal with such attacks. The school would have him over the coals if he fought back, and many of the other boy in the school would attack him for being a coward and hitting a girl. A sad indication that equality still doesn't exist but in the other direction. Girls are becoming the aggressors, just as more girls smoke than boys now and binge drink. They feel justified in their bullying because they are told by school, media and "preachers" that men are the enemy. Our sons witness all sorts of prejudice towards them everyday. Will there be a time when we look back at the mistreatment of them and their peers and are ashamed? Will they then be encouraged to hate for this mistreatment and lash out with historic anger for a time that they actually didn't live through? 

Inequality is wrong, abuse is wrong, some terrible things happened in the past (to all people at one time or another), things that are unjust and happening right now are wrong and we need to talk about them, but we don't put them right by looking for trouble where it doesn't exist. We should be looking at punishing actual abusers, confronting countries that display genuine inequality, protecting those that are down trodden not through segregation and mistrust but through a united passion aimed in the right direction. For example it makes much more sense to me that if a woman is abused by a man that she sees that abuser as a sick individual and not a normal example of his gender, for how can she then feel OK walking the street, going to the police, telling her family, believing she is safe? For there are men everywhere.

I used to work for a lesbian couple one hated her biological father who used to abuse her and her mother, the other hated her step father and blamed her mother for marrying him and allowing his cruelty to go unchecked. This couple used to have women who had been victims staying at their house as a safe place. I went around once and I was introduced to a guest as "It's alright he is one of the good guys." OK that was nice and I was sort of touched by the description, yet something made me uncomfortable. It was the idea that I was a rarity. That feeding of a fear by suggesting that I was unusual. They may not have meant it that way but it was how I heard it. Yes I am one of the good guys but one of many millions, I have known some bad guys and I have heard of some others but the vast majority of men are like me. If I didn't believe that I would be locking myself away from the world too. I don't want to be part of a world where we have to believe that every one is primarily bad. Where inequality and injustice is something that the majority love and nurture. Yet this is exactly what a lot of people are being taught and this is actually creating the thing we are supposed to hate. It is a little like the idea that we get the politicians we deserve or if you tell a child often enough that he is bad then he will become bad. 

Sadly these mistakes are being seen in naturism. Women being encouraged to stay away from men, and single men being treated like a danger. 

If we add this to the idea that promiscuity is a positive power and naturism is seen to be afraid of suggesting otherwise we are in big trouble. 

We need to start waking up to what real naturism has always been about. Like a trip to a zoo, or a weekend's camping at the lakes.  We don't expect to have to deal with a sexualised environment when we go about daily adventures in a dressed environment. A visit to a National Trust garden does not have people worrying about children being there and running headlines like "Our Nation shouldn't Trust the National Thrust." Men and women aren't kept in separate enclosures when they visit the zoo, we do not worry about campsites in the Lake District displaying behaviour more suitable for the Red-Light District. So why are we allowing such fear and concern into naturism? Naturism is backing itself into a corner? 

If people in naturism are also swingers then they have to be told to keep this aspect of their lives separate from naturism, and if they cannot they have to go. If people started swinging in a zoo they would be quickly arrested and explained that the only swinging is from the monkeys in the branches. I would imagine that it would not easy to keep the too aspects of a person's life separate, and cannot help but feel that a swinging couple would find the innocence of naturism rather constraining, but I have come across people who have said that they are able to differentiate and separate the two so hopefully they can, but this needs to be done right along the line. They should not blur the lines in their social media for example. As this is certainly damaging to naturism. If they openly discuss both most readers will just see naturism as a part of that libertine lifestyle and not two different things. For the sake of their love of naturism they should only discuss one life choice and make the choice of which one that is and stick by it. Is that too much to hope for? It isn't about judging their choices it is about wanting them to protect one of those choices and ensure it remains as choice for them and future generations to enjoy in years to come.

We need to ensure that all naturists who care for naturism ensure that naturism is kept real and in doing so they will encourage naturism to grow for everyone.      

I am strictly looking at criminal prosecutions, from a therapy point of view, so in the case of emotional abuse, I am not talking about teasing, name calling etc.. I mean it in a more deeper sense, such as in abused by a narcsissit or pyschopath. 

Incidentally Steve, it has been in my working experience that I feel it is safe to say, that lesbian releationships can be the most violent and abusive, I can sight many cases where the abuse has been extremely violent within the partnership.

If I think back to the previous Live we had, there was a comment that stated that in many cases some of the womem in these segregated groups were there because they had been abused by men, hence they felt unsafe, which relates to my thoughts above. I am not convinced that someone who has been systematically abused would enter into naturism, I certainly know that in the majority of cases I personally worked on, those females would never have had the confidence or body positivity to reveal themselves to others, let alone men. 

This subject has occupied my mind for some time now, as I see many avenues of thought and investingation, which is why I offered up my thinking in the eariler post, because this is a complicated issue, and I currently am considering many therories, of which I see similiar lines of thought in this thread. 

I think it is clear, that only a very small amount of women have the inner power and strength to go through such horrific experiences, and come out the other side, strong enough to grow confident within the naturist community, and I have nothing but deep admiration and respect for such women, because I am more than aware of the hurdles they have climbed over to get here. 

There is a part of me that still cannot accept any kind of segregation within naturism, and I do feel that there is a cross over from the textile world of ideaologies that has seeped into naturism building distrust. In my mind, it is overstated and not as pervasive as is currently being made out, because in general, men within naturism are very respectful, I certainly know my wife has never once felt unsafe or been treated any other way than respecfully.

I feel, naturism is a unifying force that builds harmony, and I strongly feel it can only do that when everyone is included in the equation, regardless of what other nay sayers may think.

It is very clear that the textile world has had an impact on the world of naturism, we see that in the politics and some clubs, which is why we feel the get real slogan is absolutely right. Now is the time to look deeply within naturism, and bring to light conversations such as this one, where everyone has the right to respectfully debate these sorts of contentious issues to the benefit of all naturists. 

This post was edited by Robin and Rin RnR at June 14, 2024 7:49 AM BST

Thanks for that Rob and I do agree and as per usual you speak a lot of good sense and impart good knowledge. As it is true that a lot of abusees continue the pattern of abuse that may explain why some women who hate men still hurt their fellow females when you would imagine they would wish to protect them. 

I do admire those who have suffered abuse who find enough strength to trust naturism and this must be a way of furthering their strength if they can and the experience is positive. Just as I admire those people who have been abused (sometimes a link of several generations) who end the abuse with them and refuse to pass it on to others. What greater sign is there of their strength than not just healing themselves but not wounding others? 

I really do think that the whole segregation idea is an example of the dressed world having an unnecessary and negative impact on naturism and it has no place in it. You are absolutely right, the refusal to allow naturism to lose its strength and importance within a united society is a big part of recognising the importance of Get Real. Naturism is about Getting Real, and we want to spend this year underlining that idea, and then seeing where the future takes us as the campaign takes shape.   

I came across a social media post sharing the hope that naturism could be more inclusive for women. Am I missing something here? Since when has naturism not be inclusive for women? If anything naturism is unfairly positive to women. Women only events are becoming more and more popular, clubs often have tough policies on single men that are not dished out to women. I have even come across venues and events that charge less for women than men. 

It isn't just men who seem to be discriminated against in today's naturism but also families. A staggering amount of events and swims and venues now reject families and naturists under 18. Even charity events - I saw a charity walk being shown on the news yesterday - loads of children were taking part with their parents and getting to know the charity - yet for all our want to support charities in naturism and to be seen as friendly and helpful - children (and therefore families) are not wanted in these walks and swims. Could you imagine the non-naturist world ever being so silly!

Look I will say that there is at times a shortage of women within naturism - on beaches, at events, at venues etc - but that is not due to a lack of inclusivity. I will also imagine that some women get pestered - though I have never seen it myself - but that is about bad behaviour and not about inclusivity. We could work on this - encouraging more families, couples and respect into naturism is a great start. Not acting like all men are pests would also be fair. A lot of fear is always in our heads - but that fear will put off women from trying naturism. 

So where is the lack of inclusivity for women being shown? If we really want equality then we should offer single men the same respect and welcome as single women, act like men are no more dangerous than women, and ensure everyone is welcome to naturism no matter how young they are - stop ostracising children. At the moment the inclusivity I see is positive discrimination offered at supporting women.  

There were hashtags attached to this post that included: BodyPositivity NaturismForAll NaturistVoices InclusiveNaturism and NaturismIsForEveryone  

Surely these terms should be including single men, families and children - let's make naturism genuinely fair and equal - and stop treating some people as more important than others. Stop encouraging segregation and making parts of our society feel unwanted while we pretend it is a cool way of making things inclusive! 

This post was edited by Anna ANW at October 15, 2025 3:45 AM BST